AA Upgrades International First/Business Service ? Civil Aviation ...
American looks like it is doing a lot to improve its in-flight service - this is just another example:
American Upgrades International First and Business Class Service
Quote: American Airlines has made some major changes to its first- and business-class in-flight service on international flights. The changes are in effect on flights operating on Boeing 777-200ER, 767-300ER, and 757-200 aircraft flying to Europe, Asia, and long-haul to Latin America. Flights aboard the airline?s new Boeing 777-300ER aircraft will also offer the upgraded meals and amenities when these aircraft go into service at the end of this month...
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
Only for Business/First it seems, their economy sucks big time. I was on GRU-DFW and IFE had like 2 movies in that tiny screen. Ugh...
IFE in economy will be upgraded surely but slowly on their aircraft with in seat IFE.
Well, that is what the headline says the article is about so I personally wasn't that surprised.
I presume the IFE options in the 777-300ER will be better, however.
Having just recently flown longhaul F on the 772 with these upgraded amenities, I have to say that I was thoroughly impressed. AA definitely stepped up their offering in this area - the new amenity kit was nice (though still not as good as the old Origins kit of a decade ago), the food was superb, the wine sampler was a nice touch, and the entire thing was very nicely presented by extremely professional flight attendants. I'm glad to see AA upping their game ...
Quoting commavia (Reply 4): though still not as good as the old Origins kit of a decade ago
The origins products were great. One thing that was included that was unique was a face wash. You don't see that in amenity kits normally.
While all of those products look nice, all AA seems to be advertising about lately is the "new" Premium cabins. While not necessarily a bad thing, as a large amount of revenue would come from those cabins, the vast majority of AA passengers are travelling in Coach.
Just go to the "Cabin Comfort" page on AA.com, and all that is advertised is Flagship Suite/Business Cabin info, as well as Main Cabin Extra.
Vast majority of passengers may be in Coach but vast majority of revenue comes from Business and First.
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 6): While all of those products look nice, all AA seems to be advertising about lately is the "new" Premium cabins. While not necessarily a bad thing, as a large amount of revenue would come from those cabins, the vast majority of AA passengers are travelling in Coach.
After the botched execution of the MRTC program AA has been very clear about not focusing on the masses choosing to purchase Y class seats. As an example, remember the re-do of the 767 cabin bins? Only part of the cabin -- up front in the premium cabins. Why do you think they only show a partial photo of the new 777-300ER Main Cabin -- the god awful 3-4-3 configuration.
The vast majority of passengers may fly in coach... but AA as well as most US-based airlines only care about 1) premium customers (F, J) and 2) volume passengers (hence elite level benefits)... because that's the source of the vast majority of revenue.
Very few airlines that I can think of market the main cabin; they concentrate on first class and business class (and premium economy, esp when it's a separate cabin with better seats).
The strategy makes perfect sense to me.
Quoting zotan (Reply 7): Vast majority of passengers may be in Coach but vast majority of revenue comes from Business and First.
Help me understand that logic. Let's say AA runs a full 763 from ORD-LHR, selling J for around $4k/rt and Y for around $800/rt. Their 763's seat 30 in J and 195 in Y (according to SeatGuru). Simple math tells me the following:
J - 30 x $4k = $120,000
Y - 195 X $800 = $156,000.
Now, right there Y class has already generated $36k more in revenue for that one flight. Add on top of that things like liquor sales and/or pillows and blankets (which are included in J class) - and this is more revenue from Y.
The only variable here is aircraft (the 772ER in AA's case) that also includes F. Only with the inclusion of F does the premium classes generate more revenue.
Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 10): Help me understand that logic. Let's say AA runs a full 763 from ORD-LHR, selling J for around $4k/rt and Y for around $800/rt. Their 763's seat 30 in J and 195 in Y (according to SeatGuru). Simple math tells me the following:
J - 30 x $4k = $120,000
Y - 195 X $800 = $156,000.
Now, right there Y class has already generated $36k more in revenue for that one flight. Add on top of that things like liquor sales and/or pillows and blankets (which are included in J class) - and this is more revenue from Y.
Remember that people in J are probably traveling on expense accounts, which means corporate revenue. A corporate contract usually calls for a minimum number of round trips or flight segments to be flown by employees in a calendar year. So, you have a corporation that may have to guarentee several hundred roundtrips each year from a hub (a company with offices in SFO, DFW, and PHL could have contracts with UA, AA, and US) or several thousand roundtrips company-wide.
If people booking J or say expensive Y tickets and getting upgrades aren't happy with the J product, the company could very well move the contract to a carrier with a better product.
If you look at this website, you will see with some regularity that airlines drop routes because of too little traffic in the front cabin(s). Coach may be full on a regular basis with decent yields, but it's F and/or J that often makes a route profitable.
Quoting questions (Reply 8): The vast majority of passengers may fly in coach... but AA as well as most US-based airlines only care about 1) premium customers (F, J) and 2) volume passengers (hence elite level benefits)... because that's the source of the vast majority of revenue.
AA sure cares only for the business/first but then they cannot complain why the long haul economy passengers prefer anybody else than them. QR/LA/CX etc all have better economy product than AA/UA etc. Even AI economy product was better than AA (for ORD-DEL, I am sure). No wonder they could not make that route work.
Recently I was reading a trip report about AA LHR-JFK which was probably a 763 with no PTV. I mean no wonder if you are in the know want to avoid these kind of planes.
So I guess there is no plan for upgrading the back section of their 772 as well?
Quoting airdfw (Reply 12): AA sure cares only for the business/first but then they cannot complain why the long haul economy passengers prefer anybody else than them. QR/LA/CX etc all have better economy product than AA/UA etc. Even AI economy product was better than AA (for ORD-DEL, I am sure). No wonder they could not make that route work.
I remember when AA had a good economy product Internationally! They could really do some simple not to expensive tweaks that would really be a vast improvement, if they wanted to. Though it is clear they do not care for the back of the bus, and that is what it is.
Y is a commodity product. The vast majority of passengers buy the cheapest ticket and complain afterwards. They say they will never travel the airline again, go to another airline, get the same commoditized bad product, then go to another airline, but everytime their only concern is the price.
Airlines have no reason to treat these customers well. They buy a ticket the same way they buy their junk food at Wal Mart. Y is just about filling seats and getting the extra cash that pays for the gas.
There is a minority of economy class passengers who want a better service AND are ready to pay for it. For these there is the possibility to buy a la carte services, and for the sub-part that not only will pay a bit more but also fly often, there are frequent flyer benefits.
All airlines got it and I as a passenger got it too by now. If you want the cheapest ticket it's like buying your burger at White Castle, you are free to do so.
So great that AA is taking care of those C and F passengers who are ready to pay. If they want to or can please this segment which is between Y and C, they can do this by creating a premium Y as BA, AF, TK, AZ, SU and others do. I suppose at some point a US airline will catch up on this, their premium Y offering is lacking for now. Meanwhile let steerage be steerage.
Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 14): Airlines have no reason to treat these customers well. They buy a ticket the same way they buy their junk food at Wal Mart. Y is just about filling seats and getting the extra cash that pays for the gas.
In this day of social media I would have to say that you are dead wrong. People have a much wider and vast means to share the good, bad and the ugly and yes they will. Also this segment of the population could also be your future first and business customer now with money one day. And they certainly are not going to want to give that hard earned money to a company that treated them like dirt just cause they could only afford economy at that time.
I wish you were right. Unfortunately experience shows it does not happen this way. Regardless of how much they complain, occasional flyers mostly read one thing and it is not Facebook, it is the price tag.
Quoting airdfw (Reply 12): So I guess there is no plan for upgrading the back section of their 772 as well?
They 772s will get reconfigured to match the 77Ws. Except some minor variations in seats. I'm assuming they will opt for 3X4X3 as well.
International coach on AA is pretty bland, and behind the times. But that's not changing anytime soon with the majority of the fleet. While the new service is a nice upgrade, it does not function well on the current 772/763/757s. The service is meant for the 77W.
Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 10): Help me understand that logic. Let's say AA runs a full 763 from ORD-LHR, selling J for around $4k/rt and Y for around $800/rt. Their 763's seat 30 in J and 195 in Y (according to SeatGuru). Simple math tells me the following:
J - 30 x $4k = $120,000
Y - 195 X $800 = $156,000.
Now, right there Y class has already generated $36k more in revenue for that one flight. Add on top of that things like liquor sales and/or pillows and blankets (which are included in J class) - and this is more revenue from Y.
The only variable here is aircraft (the 772ER in AA's case) that also includes F. Only with the inclusion of F does the premium classes generate more revenue.
It's better to look at it in terms of revenue relative to space occupied.
Using your example:
Each row of J is roughly equal to 2 rows of Y, so 6 J seats are roughly equal to 14 Y seats:
6 x $4,000 = $24,000
14 x $800 = $11,200
So in that space available, J seating will generate more than double the revenue that Y seating will. Even with the higher cost of J service, it's far more profitable relative to the space it consumes on the plane.
You've also picked a pretty premium light configuration to use -- compare it to UA's 2 class 772 (using the same fares):
50J x $4,000 = $200,000
217Y x $800 = $175,000 (a couple of grand more if they can sell Y+ upgrades)
Or a DL 76T (with the new J class seats):
36J x $4,000 = $144,000
172Y x $800 = $137,500 (again with a couple of grand in additional possible Y+ revenue)
Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 14):
Y is a commodity product. The vast majority of passengers buy the cheapest ticket and complain afterwards. They say they will never travel the airline again, go to another airline, get the same commoditized bad product, then go to another airline, but everytime their only concern is the price.
I get what you're trying to say and the type of consumer you're describing. However, I don't think your description portray's the VAST majority of passengers. There is a segment of the population whom are extremely budget conscious, and yes, I tend to agree they complain and will do it to each and every airline they fly with. Luckily we have airlines whom cater to this population, the one's who's mantra is - "I don't have the SPIRIT to fly RYANAIR so I brave new FRONTIER's and travel to the SOUTHWEST on the cheapest fares. After a quick search online and one simple CLICK, I SCOOT to the airport and JET 2 my destination." You get the picture...
Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 14): Airlines have no reason to treat these customers well. They buy a ticket the same way they buy their junk food at Wal Mart. Y is just about filling seats and getting the extra cash that pays for the gas.
Actually, they have every reason to treat these customers well. Airlines are a service based business - customer service is everything. Until a passenger is rude or disrespects an airline employee, airlines should show the same respect back. And to label them as junk food eating Wal Mart shoppers is crass. Why should anybody be looked down upon or treated differently for taking advantage of a cheap fare the airline published?
Quoting qf002 (Reply 18): You've also picked a pretty premium light configuration to use -- compare it to UA's 2 class 772 (using the same fares):
50J x $4,000 = $200,000
217Y x $800 = $175,000 (a couple of grand more if they can sell Y+ upgrades)
Or a DL 76T (with the new J class seats):
36J x $4,000 = $144,000
172Y x $800 = $137,500 (again with a couple of grand in additional possible Y+ revenue)
Right, like I said - the variable is aircraft. But to say VAST majority of revenues comes from J and/or F cabins?? I'm sorry, the difference DL is making on a fully loaded 76T is $6,500. I guarantee you once you add in the ancillary revenue from from Y+, liquor, pillows, blankets - they're on par.
A flight might not do so well if it's not filling up the front, but it sure as heck isn't going to do good if ALL it's doing is filling the front. Both J and Y+/Y serve their purposes.
Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 10): Help me understand that logic. Let's say AA runs a full 763 from ORD-LHR, selling J for around $4k/rt and Y for around $800/rt. Their 763's seat 30 in J and 195 in Y (according to SeatGuru). Simple math tells me the following:
J - 30 x $4k = $120,000
Y - 195 X $800 = $156,000.
Quoting airdfw (Reply 12):
So I guess there is no plan for upgrading the back section of their 772 as well?
When will AA release their new 772 seat map. We know its only J and Y with Y+ but some have posted the seat in the 777-200ER is NOT the same as the 773ER. What is the difference.
Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 19): Actually, they have every reason to treat these customers well. Airlines are a service based business - customer service is everything. Until a passenger is rude or disrespects an airline employee, airlines should show the same respect back. And to label them as junk food eating Wal Mart shoppers is crass. Why should anybody be looked down upon or treated differently for taking advantage of a cheap fare the airline published?
You said what I trying to. No one should be treated or made to feel like less of a customer based on the fare they paid. The bottom line is the airline is setting the fare not the consumer.
Quoting airdfw (Reply 1): Only for Business/First it seems, their economy sucks big time. I was on GRU-DFW and IFE had like 2 movies in that tiny screen. Ugh...
Perhaps there was something wrong with the IFE system on that flight. Because coach on the 772 typically has around a dozen movies and numerous NBC Universal shows. While certainly not up to par with competitors, there is a lot more on offer than two movies. And not for nothing, people compliment the food in coach all the time (at least to/from Europe) so at least it's not all bad.
Quoting dcann40 (Reply 3): I presume the IFE options in the 777-300ER will be better, however.
Incredibly so. Hundreds of movies and television shows, all on demand. Along with inflight chat (texting seat to seat) and international wi-fi, the 773 will offer a service far superior to anything AA has ever offered, and on 9" screens in coach.
Quoting commavia (Reply 4): though still not as good as the old Origins kit of a decade ago
I completely agree. That was simply the best kit ever. Too bad it hasn't come back. FYI, if you were seated in First you got the new iPad case amenity kit, right, with Dermalogica products? Those Dermalogica products will eventually come in bigger bottles, which will be a nice touch. Apparently they're burning off the current supply of the smaller bottles.
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 6): the vast majority of AA passengers are travelling in Coach.
While we already know the 773 will offer a superior hard product beginning later this month, and the 772 starting next year, there's word the food service will get it's makeover in coach this fall. So there are great improvements in the works for coach on all fronts (minus the 3x4x3 layout). Also remember every Airbus a/c delivered to AA will feature inseat AVOD front to back, as well as all new delivery 738s beginning in December 2013.
Quoting airdfw (Reply 12): Recently I was reading a trip report about AA LHR-JFK which was probably a 763 with no PTV. I mean no wonder if you are in the know want to avoid these kind of planes.
Hmm... AA doesn't operate the 763 between LHR and JFK. But they do fly the 763 between LHR and ORD, DFW and MIA. The 763, by far, is the worst international product out there, IMO. While we know the 763s will get a new J-class seat (again), there is no word on any improvements in coach. Initially there were no plans for coach, but word on the street is there maybe some improvements coming after all. But we won't see any of those improvements until next year. The food service, however, has been upgraded and as others have said is getting very positive feedback.
Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 14): Y is a commodity product. The vast majority of passengers buy the cheapest ticket and complain afterwards. They say they will never travel the airline again, go to another airline, get the same commoditized bad product, then go to another airline, but everytime their only concern is the price.
It may be so for short haul but for long haul, we look around don't we for the best (that reasonable money can buy)? I mean if you have choice of AA 763 vs BA 744 with superior product in Y class you would rather for that. The difference may be couple of hundred dollars but when we are in cattle class you would want to go for some comfort.
My point is AA needs to improve their 772 back in the cabin as well. Even for comparing the sister carriers they suck big time (like LA/BA).
25 greggariouspdx: Glad to hear that AA is improving their International F and J service. The angled-lie flat seats in J are an unmitigated disaster - and the service is
26 N62NA: I agree with much of what you wrote and think you might have just rephrased this part a bit. Airlines (AA in this case) do treat passengers who are s
27 PRAirbus: AA 772s will also get a makeover. Their 763s are in desperate need of one too especially since only God knows when AA will finally get 787s! AA waited
28 EASTERN747: The math doesn't work either. How many of those in j or F are upgrades/miles? It used to be your miles equal the miles flown. Now with credit cards, p
29 PRAirbus: AA 772s will also get a makeover. Their 763s are in desperate need of one too especially since only God knows when AA will finally get 787s! AA waited
30 mah4546: AA has already announced the 763s will be getting new interiors - only half the fleet will get the new cabins; presumably the other half will be reti
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